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Testing Prayer

  • “Choose a phenomenon that is directly observable, unambiguous, and indisputably miraculous.”
  • “The prayer should be specific, detailed, and directed towards a particular God whose doctrine claims the ability to perform such miracles.”
  • “To rule out coincidence or psychological factors: No-Prayer Control Group and Different Prayer Control Group.”
  • “The event must be observed and recorded by reliable, unbiased observers and, if possible, monitored with scientific equipment to provide clear, unambiguous results.”
  • “Experts in relevant fields should verify that the change could not have been produced by current human capabilities.”
  • “The prayer test should be repeatable with consistent results under the same conditions, verifying that the outcome is not due to chance or external manipulation.”

Table of Contents: (Click any link below to navigate to that section.)

  1. There is a large number of mutually exclusive Gods alleged, as well as many alleged answers to prayers from each of those Gods that oddly deviate little from what is physically possible. Construct a test of prayer that would definitively confirm the existence of the God prayed to.
    1. Designing a Definitive Prayer Test
      1. Step 1: Selecting the Target of Prayer
      2. Step 2: Formulating the Prayer
      3. Step 3: Establishing Control Groups
      4. Step 4: Observation and Documentation
      5. Step 5: Analysis and Verification
      6. Step 6: Replication
    2. Ethical and Philosophical Considerations
  2. I have proposed a test of prayer below that would not pose any difficulty for any actual God of the universe. Assess whether it would effectively distinguish any actual God from invented Gods.
    1. Assessing the Prayer Test for Moving Mount Fuji
      1. Effectiveness of the Test Design
      2. Potential Challenges
      3. Conclusion
  3. Phil’s Pushback on the Responses
    1. Philosophical Considerations on Belief and Worship
      1. Existence vs. Worship
      2. The Virtue of Belief Without Evidence
      3. Conclusion
  4. ChatGPT says the following:
    1. Comment on ChatGPT’s statement above in light of the following:
      1. Analysis of Faith and Rationality
        1. Understanding Faith and Evidence
        2. Faith Exceeding Evidence
        3. Philosophical Understanding and Evidence
        4. Conclusion
  5. Returning to the prayer test, is there any coherent reason why any actual omnipresent and omnipotent God who wants a personal relationship with each human would not simply make himself known with either miraculously answered prayer or, better yet, a face-to-face interaction?
    1. Analyzing Divine Concealment and the Role of Faith
      1. The Hiddenness of God
      2. Critique of the Concept of Testing Faith
      3. Philosophical Arguments Against Divine Hiddenness
      4. Theological Defenses
      5. Conclusion
  6. Create a 10-item quiz on the entire thread above.
    1. Quiz: Divine Hiddenness and the Nature of Faith
    2. Answers to the Quiz
    3. Quiz: Faith, Evidence, and the Divine
  7. Provide 15 discussion questions relevant to the content above.
    1. Discussion Questions: Faith, Evidence, and the Divine

There is a large number of mutually exclusive Gods alleged, as well as many alleged answers to prayers from each of those Gods that oddly deviate little from what is physically possible. Construct a test of prayer that would definitively confirm the existence of the God prayed to.

Consider the following:

  • Any God of the universe knows how to cure the diseases that cause so much suffering.
  • Any God of the universe knows about every tragedy that will happen tomorrow without supernatural intervention.
  • Any God of the universe knows every secret of every human dead or alive.
  • Any God of the universe can transport humans through time and space without breaking a sweat.
  • Any God of the inverse can perform miracles, such as moving mountains or immediately restoring amputated limbs, far beyond the boundary of what is physically possible.
  • Any God of the universe wanting a personal relationship with humans would not expect humans to believe in his existence based on dubious evidence.

Designing a Definitive Prayer Test

To design a test of prayer that would definitively confirm the existence of a specific God, the test must be carefully structured to exclude natural explanations, psychological effects, and coincidences. Given the attributes you’ve mentioned, the test should focus on an event or action that is clearly beyond human or natural capabilities.

Step 1: Selecting the Target of Prayer

Choose a phenomenon that is directly observable, unambiguous, and indisputably miraculous. This could involve:

  • Restoring amputated limbs: This is medically impossible with current technology and thus would be a clear indicator of supernatural intervention.
  • Transporting individuals through time or space: Observably moving a person from one location to another instantly or sending them to a different time period and then bringing them back.
Step 2: Formulating the Prayer

The prayer should be specific, detailed, and directed towards a particular God whose doctrine claims the ability to perform such miracles. The prayer should ask for:

  • A specific, miraculous event (e.g., the regeneration of a particular individual’s amputated limb).
  • The event to occur within a precisely defined time frame (e.g., within minutes of the prayer on a specific date).
Step 3: Establishing Control Groups

To rule out coincidence or psychological factors:

  • No-Prayer Control Group: A similar set of conditions where no prayer is made.
  • Different Prayer Control Group: Prayer to different deities or for different outcomes under otherwise identical conditions.
Step 4: Observation and Documentation

The event must be observed and recorded by reliable, unbiased observers and, if possible, monitored with scientific equipment to provide clear, unambiguous results. Documentation should include:

  • Video and photographic evidence of the event.
  • Medical and scientific records before and after the event.
Step 5: Analysis and Verification

After the event:

  • Experts in relevant fields (medical, scientific) should verify that the change could not have been produced by current human capabilities.
  • The results should be compared across different groups to check for statistical significance.
Step 6: Replication

The prayer test should be repeatable with consistent results under the same conditions, verifying that the outcome is not due to chance or external manipulation.

Ethical and Philosophical Considerations

Designing such a test raises significant ethical issues, especially in terms of the welfare and dignity of participants. Additionally, the philosophical implications of proving the existence of a deity through empirical means could have profound impacts on religious faith, human belief systems, and societal norms.

This kind of experiment, while theoretically interesting, also ventures into areas that many might find controversial or incompatible with their personal or religious beliefs. Therefore, it is crucial to approach such a test with sensitivity and respect for diverse viewpoints.

You’re right, designing a definitive test for any God is challenging due to the vast number of possibilities and the nature of faith itself. However, we can create a thought experiment that highlights the limitations of typical prayer tests and offers an alternative approach.

Here’s why traditional tests might not work:

  • Problem of Coincidence: A seemingly answered prayer could be chance, natural causes, or the actions of others.
  • The Problem of Free Will: If a God respects free will, direct intervention to answer prayers might be limited.
  • Subjectivity of Interpretation: “Answers” to prayers can be subjective and open to interpretation.

Here’s an alternative approach:

  • The Public Miracle with Delayed Verification:
  1. The Prayer: A group of people from various faiths pray together for a specific, publicly verifiable future event that would violate known physics. This could be a specific astronomical phenomenon, a sudden change in a fundamental constant of nature, or the appearance of a specific symbol in a specific location on Earth.
  2. The Delay: The verification of the event is delayed by a significant amount of time (e.g., 100 years). This eliminates the possibility of the event being a hoax or coincidence.
  3. The Reveal: After the chosen time period, scientific records and historical documents are examined to see if the prayed-for event actually happened.

Why this might work:

  • Public and Objective: The event is verifiable and not dependent on individual interpretation.
  • Respects Free Will: The prayer doesn’t ask for intervention in current events, only a future demonstration of power.
  • Challenge for All Gods: Any God capable of miracles, regardless of their relationship with humanity, could fulfill this request.

Limitations:

  • Requires Patience: The answer wouldn’t be immediate, potentially taking centuries.
  • Doesn’t Guarantee Specific God: It wouldn’t identify the specific God responsible.
  • Still Open to Interpretation: Some might argue the event was a natural phenomenon not understood by science.

This thought experiment highlights the difficulty of definitively proving the existence of a God. However, it offers a framework for a test that is objective, verifiable, and respects the concept of free will.

Ultimately, faith is a personal choice. This exercise might not provide absolute proof, but it could spark interesting discussions about the nature of God, prayer, and the relationship between science and religion.

The question of whether prayer can definitively confirm the existence of a specific God is a complex one. While it’s challenging to design an empirical test that would satisfy everyone, there have been attempts to study the effects of prayer in various contexts. Let’s explore a few approaches:

  1. Intercessory Prayer Studies:
  2. Testing Specific Claims:
    • To design a test that specifically confirms the existence of a particular God, we’d need to focus on the unique attributes associated with that deity.
    • For example, if a God is believed to cure diseases, we could design a controlled experiment where patients are prayed for in the name of that specific God. If statistically significant healing occurs, it might provide evidence.
    • Similarly, if a God is said to know future events, we could devise a prediction task and see if prayers invoking that God lead to accurate predictions.
    • However, even if positive results were obtained, they wouldn’t necessarily prove the existence of that God. Other explanations (e.g., psychological factors, coincidence) could still account for the outcomes.
  3. Philosophical Arguments:
  4. Personal Experience and Faith:
    • Many believers claim personal experiences of God’s presence, answered prayers, or divine guidance. While these are subjective, they play a significant role in individual faith.
    • However, personal experiences cannot be universally tested or verified.

In summary, while we can explore prayer scientifically and philosophically, definitive proof of a specific God’s existence remains elusive. The nature of faith often involves a combination of personal conviction, community, and philosophical reflection. Ultimately, belief in God often transcends empirical evidence and enters the realm of faith and spirituality. 🙏🌟4.

I have proposed a test of prayer below that would not pose any difficulty for any actual God of the universe. Assess whether it would effectively distinguish any actual God from invented Gods.

Testing Gods who can allegedly move mountains:

Method: The members of a specific religious group would post en mass on social media the following prediction as a result of their prayer to their particular God.

Prediction: Starting tomorrow, Mount Fuji will be relocated to a new country every day for a year. This will be preceded by documented prayers to the God in question for this precise miracle.

Validation: The fulfillment of this prediction could be validated by citizens and scientists all around the world. The evidence would be far to strong to deny as evidence for the God who had been prayed to for this miracle.

Assessing the Prayer Test for Moving Mount Fuji

Effectiveness of the Test Design

Clarity and Specificity of the Test:

  • The test is extremely specific and clear. Moving Mount Fuji to a different country daily is undeniably miraculous and beyond current human capabilities. This specificity is crucial in eliminating natural explanations or coincidences.

Observable and Measurable Outcome:

  • The outcome of Mount Fuji appearing in different countries is easily observable and can be independently verified by multiple sources globally, including satellite imagery, media, and on-site witnesses. This wide validation framework minimizes the risk of fraud or error.

Exclusivity of Divine Intervention:

  • The phenomenon described cannot be replicated through technological or human means, given our current understanding of physics and geology. This makes it a good candidate for testing the intervention of a deity with powers ascribed in many religious texts, such as omnipotence.
Potential Challenges

Ambiguity in Divine Will:

  • The premise assumes that the deity is willing to perform this miracle to prove its existence or validate the faith of its followers. However, theological arguments often suggest that deities may choose not to perform miracles to preserve faith as a free and uncoerced choice.

Theological Implications:

  • Some religious doctrines might interpret the act of testing a deity through such a display as blasphemous or inappropriate, potentially affecting the willingness of the faithful to participate.

Global Impact and Ethical Concerns:

  • Physically relocating a massive natural object like Mount Fuji could have catastrophic environmental and geopolitical consequences. Ethically, this poses significant risks to global safety, ecosystems, and international relations.
Conclusion

Effectiveness in Distinguishing between Real and Invented Gods:

  • If Mount Fuji were to move as described, and if this movement could be directly attributed to a specific deity through prior, public, and documented prayer, it would provide compelling evidence for the existence and power of that deity. This scenario effectively meets the criteria for a test that would distinguish a real deity with the described capabilities from fictional ones.

Overall Feasibility:

  • While theoretically profound, the practical implementation of such a test raises significant ethical, theological, and safety concerns that would likely prevent it from being realized. The potential real-world consequences and doctrinal issues could deter participation and acceptance, even among believers.

In summary, while the proposed test is theoretically sound in terms of its design to confirm the supernatural capabilities of a deity, it is practically and ethically problematic. This test would more likely remain a thought experiment rather than a feasible empirical investigation.

The test you propose has the potential to be effective, but there are limitations to consider:

Strengths:

  • Public and Dramatic: The daily relocation of Mount Fuji would be a globally undeniable event, attracting immense attention.
  • Difficult to Fake: Moving a mountain is far beyond human capability, making a hoax unlikely.

Weaknesses:

  • Scale: Some might argue that even a powerful God wouldn’t perform such a seemingly pointless act.
  • Open to Interpretation: Even with documented prayers, some might attribute the event to an unknown natural phenomenon or another God.
  • Confirmation Bias: This test might only convince those already predisposed to believe in the God who performed the miracle.

Here’s a breakdown of the limitations:

  • Scale: An omnipotent God might choose more subtle or meaningful ways to demonstrate power. Moving a mountain, while impressive, could be seen as a showy display compared to something that alleviates suffering or advances humanity’s understanding of the universe.
  • Open to Interpretation: Even with documented prayers, there could be alternate explanations. Perhaps another God intervened, or maybe science just hasn’t discovered the natural phenomenon that caused this.
  • Confirmation Bias: People tend to interpret information in a way that confirms their existing beliefs. Believers in the God who moved the mountain would be convinced, but others might remain unconvinced.

Alternative Approaches:

  • The Public Miracle with Delayed Verification (as discussed previously): This approach offers a more objective test that transcends specific interpretations.

Ultimately, the effectiveness of any test depends on how you define “God.” If a God is defined by having the ability to move mountains, then this test might be definitive. However, if a God is seen as a more complex being with a higher purpose, this test might be irrelevant.

Here are some additional points to consider:

  • Faith vs. Evidence: Some believe faith is independent of evidence, while others seek proof. This test might appeal more to those who value evidence.
  • The Nature of Miracles: The concept of miracles often involves the violation of natural laws. This test would rely on such a violation.

While your proposed test has interesting aspects, it’s important to acknowledge the limitations and consider alternative approaches depending on your definition of what constitutes a definitive test for a God.

Your proposed test of prayer is intriguing and creative! Let’s break it down:

1: Method:

  • Members of a specific religious group would collectively post a prediction on social media.
  • The prediction states that starting tomorrow, Mount Fuji will be relocated to a new country every day for a year.
  • This relocation would occur as a result of documented prayers to their particular God.

2: Validation:

  • Citizens and scientists worldwide would monitor the situation.
  • If Mount Fuji indeed relocates daily as predicted, it would be strong evidence in favor of the God prayed to by that religious group.

3: Analysis:

  • Your proposed test is clever because it directly challenges a specific attribute associated with certain Gods (the ability to move mountains).
  • If successful, this test would indeed distinguish a genuine God from invented ones.
  • The global visibility and scientific scrutiny make it difficult to dismiss the evidence.

4: Considerations:

  • While this test is imaginative, it still faces challenges:
    • Natural Explanations: Skeptics might propose natural explanations (e.g., geological shifts, tectonic activity) rather than divine intervention.
    • Interpretation: Some might argue that even if Mount Fuji moved, it doesn’t necessarily prove a specific God’s existence—it could be an unknown force.
    • Multiple Gods: If different religious groups attempt similar tests, and different mountains move, how do we attribute it to a specific God?

5: Broader Implications:

  • Even if successful, this test wouldn’t necessarily convince everyone. Faith often transcends empirical evidence.
  • It highlights the challenge of designing a universally accepted test for God’s existence.

In summary, while your proposed test is fascinating, it remains a thought experiment. The nature of belief and faith is multifaceted, and definitive proof often eludes us. 🌟🏔️.

Phil’s Pushback on the Responses

“…deities may choose not to perform miracles to preserve faith as a free and uncoerced choice.“

Knowing unequivocally that a God exists does not remove the choice whether to worship that God, right? A God’s existence must be established before that God can expect to be worshiped, right? Or is a virtue to irrationally believe a God exists to a degree that does not map to the degree of the relevant evidence?

“Moving a mountain, while impressive, could be seen as a showy display.”

The goal given for this project was offered without concerns whether the God appeared to be a “show-off”. It was focused on the God making himself unequivocally known (which seems a minimum requirement for any personal God), right?

“Even if successful, this test wouldn’t necessarily convince everyone. Faith often transcends empirical evidence.“

You appear to be confusing disbelief with belief in the quote above, right? Faith is about believing where there is a lack of evidence while remaining unconvinced is about doubt in the face of evidence, right?

Philosophical Considerations on Belief and Worship

Existence vs. Worship

Independence of Worship from Knowledge:

  • Knowing that a God exists does not automatically necessitate worship; these are separate considerations. The decision to worship involves additional factors such as moral alignment, personal resonance with the God’s teachings, and the perceived character or benevolence of the deity. Thus, knowledge of existence provides a foundation for worship but does not compel it.

Expectations of Worship:

  • It’s logical to argue that a deity cannot reasonably expect worship without clear evidence of existence. From a rational standpoint, establishing the existence of a deity is a prerequisite for informed worship. This aligns with principles of informed consent in broader ethical discussions—just as one cannot consent to what they do not understand, one cannot sincerely worship what they do not believe exists based on reasonable evidence.
The Virtue of Belief Without Evidence

Rational Belief vs. Virtuous Belief:

  • Whether believing without sufficient evidence is a virtue depends on the context and the nature of belief. In many religious contexts, faith—defined as belief in the absence of complete empirical evidence—is considered a virtue. This faith is not necessarily irrational; it can be based on personal experiences, testimonies, or a philosophical understanding of the world that transcends empirical proof.

Epistemic vs. Moral Virtue:

  • From an epistemological perspective (the study of knowledge), beliefs should ideally align with the evidence to be considered rational. However, from a moral or spiritual perspective, faith might be seen as a virtue if it promotes moral behavior, community cohesion, or personal peace.

Contextual and Cultural Variability:

  • The value placed on faith versus evidence varies widely across different cultures and religious traditions. Some philosophies prioritize empirical evidence and rational thought (like many strands of modern secular humanism), while others see transcendent, non-rational knowledge as equally or more important (such as in many mystic or spiritual traditions).
Conclusion

The relationship between the knowledge of a God’s existence, the choice to worship, and the virtue of belief without evidence encompasses a complex interplay of epistemic integrity, ethical values, and cultural context. While rational evidence of a deity’s existence provides a clearer basis for worship, many religious traditions uphold faith as a valued element of spiritual life, emphasizing belief as a meaningful choice rather than a purely rational calculation.

You’re absolutely right. From the perspective of a personal God who desires a relationship with humanity, being readily identifiable is a key point. The test you propose definitely addresses that aspect. Here’s why your mountain-moving test could be effective in achieving that goal:

  • Undeniable Evidence: The daily relocation of Mount Fuji would be undeniable proof of a God’s existence. There would be no room for doubt or alternative explanations.
  • Global Impact: This event would affect everyone on Earth, forcing them to confront the reality of a higher power. It wouldn’t be limited to a single religious group.

Here are some additional thoughts on why a personal God might choose such a dramatic act, even if it seems showy:

  • Importance of Belief: For a personal God, a core desire might be to establish a genuine connection with humanity. This dramatic event could spark a global awakening to the divine, creating a foundation for a deeper relationship.
  • Attention-Getting Measure: In a world filled with distractions, a dramatic miracle might be necessary to grab humanity’s attention and shift its focus towards the spiritual.

Of course, there are still limitations to consider:

  • Fear and Chaos: Such a dramatic event could also cause widespread fear and societal disruption. A truly benevolent God might prioritize peace and stability over a show of force.
  • Alternative Explanations: Even with the undeniable nature of the event, some might still find alternative explanations, clinging to disbelief.

Conclusion:

Your mountain-moving test is a strong contender for unequivocally demonstrating the existence of a personal God. It provides undeniable evidence and has the potential to shift the global focus towards the divine. However, it’s important to consider the potential downsides of such a dramatic display and the possibility of alternative explanations.

Ultimately, the effectiveness of this test hinges on the nature of the God itself. A God who prioritizes a dramatic show of power and a clear message might find this approach ideal. However, a more subtle or nurturing God might choose a different method for revealing itself.

You’re absolutely right, and I appreciate your keen observation! Let’s clarify the distinction:

  1. Belief and Disbelief:
    • Belief: Belief involves accepting something as true or real, often in the absence of complete evidence or empirical proof. It’s a conviction that goes beyond what can be directly demonstrated.
    • Disbelief: Disbelief, on the other hand, is the rejection or lack of acceptance of a claim or proposition. It occurs when evidence or reasoning leads someone to doubt the truth of a statement.
  2. Faith and Doubt:
    • Faith: Faith typically involves trust, confidence, and loyalty toward a particular belief, concept, or deity. It often extends beyond empirical evidence and relies on personal conviction, spiritual experiences, or religious teachings.
    • Doubt: Doubt arises when there’s uncertainty or skepticism about a claim. It’s a healthy intellectual process that encourages critical thinking and questioning. Doubt doesn’t necessarily negate faith but prompts further exploration.
  3. The Spectrum:
    • Belief and disbelief exist on a spectrum, with varying degrees of certainty:
      • Strong Belief: Absolute conviction without doubt.
      • Moderate Belief: Conviction tempered by some doubt.
      • Agnosticism: Uncertainty or lack of commitment to either belief or disbelief.
      • Moderate Disbelief: Skepticism but not absolute rejection.
      • Strong Disbelief: Firm rejection of a claim.
    • Faith and doubt also coexist along this spectrum, influencing our perspectives.
  4. Personal Context:
    • People navigate this spectrum differently based on their upbringing, experiences, culture, and personal reflections.
    • Some find comfort in faith, while others find intellectual fulfillment in doubt.

In summary, belief, disbelief, faith, and doubt are complex and multifaceted. They intersect, overlap, and shape our worldview. Thank you for engaging in this thoughtful discussion! 🌟🤔

ChatGPT says the following:

This faith is not necessarily irrational; it can be based on personal experiences, testimonies, or a philosophical understanding of the world that transcends empirical proof.

Comment on ChatGPT’s statement above in light of the following:

  • Faith is a degree of confidence that exceeds the degree of the relevant evidence.
  • To the degree that one’s degree of confidence exceeds the degree of the relevant evidence, to that degree one is irrational.
  • The relevant evidence need not be empirical. It can include concepts such as logical coherence.
  • “Personal experiences” and “testimonies” constitute relevant evidence, however tenuous that evidence might be.
  • A “philosophical understanding” is not evidence, but is an epistemic position that must itself map to the degree of the relevant evidence if it is to be rational.
  • If something “transcends empirical proof” and yet does constitute evidence, it cannot possibly move a degree of belief that exceeds the degree of the evidence out of the classification of “irrational” into something that is “rational” or an epistemic “virtue”.

Analysis of Faith and Rationality

Understanding Faith and Evidence

The statement you’ve highlighted delves into the nuanced view of faith as it relates to evidence and rationality. The definition of faith as a degree of confidence that exceeds the available evidence does suggest a departure from strict rationality. However, the dynamics of how faith is exercised and justified within personal belief systems are complex.

Faith Exceeding Evidence
  1. Rationality and Proportionality:
  • The principle that a belief is rational only if the degree of confidence in that belief is proportional to the degree of the available evidence is a foundational concept in epistemology. By this standard, any belief that extends beyond what is directly supported by evidence ventures into irrationality.
  1. Nature of Evidence in Faith:
  • While personal experiences and testimonies are indeed forms of evidence, their reliability and interpretability can vary significantly. These types of evidence are often highly subjective, prone to biases, and difficult to verify independently. Thus, they may provide a weaker basis for forming robust, universally acceptable conclusions compared to empirical or logical evidence.
Philosophical Understanding and Evidence
  1. Role of Philosophical Understanding:
  • Philosophical understanding, while not direct evidence, frames and interprets the evidence within a broader conceptual or theoretical structure. If this understanding overly distorts or extends beyond the available evidence without rigorous justification, it can indeed contribute to irrationality.
  1. Transcendence and Empirical Proof:
  • The concept of something that “transcends empirical proof” often refers to ideas or entities that are not directly observable or measurable by empirical means. This can include abstract concepts like justice, beauty, or even theoretical entities in physics. If these concepts are posited as evidence without a clear connection to observable phenomena or logical deduction, then any belief based heavily on these concepts risks being classified as irrational.
Conclusion

Your elaboration and definitions emphasize a more stringent interpretation of rationality—one where faith, as commonly understood in religious or spiritual contexts, might indeed be seen as irrational if it significantly exceeds the support provided by tangible evidence. The distinction here pivots on the acceptance of different kinds of evidence and the thresholds for their validation.

In the context of robust discourse on faith and rationality, this perspective underscores the importance of critically evaluating the bases of our beliefs and ensuring they are as aligned with the available evidence as possible, while acknowledging that in many personal and cultural contexts, faith may serve functions that transcend purely epistemic considerations.

ChatGPT’s statement and your counterpoint both raise interesting points about the nature of faith and rationality. Here’s a breakdown:

ChatGPT’s Point:

  • Faith can be based on non-empirical evidence: Faith doesn’t necessarily require scientific proof. It can stem from personal experiences, stories passed down (testimonies), or a philosophical framework that provides meaning beyond the physical world.

Your Counterpoint:

  • Rationality and evidence: Faith involves a degree of belief exceeding evidence. However, some evidence, even non-empirical, is necessary to avoid complete irrationality.
  • Types of Evidence: You acknowledge personal experiences and testimonies as evidence, although potentially weak. You differentiate between evidence and philosophical understanding, which should be based on evidence itself to be rational.
  • “Transcendent” Evidence and rationality: You argue that evidence that transcends proof cannot justify a belief exceeding available evidence.

Addressing the Discrepancy:

The key difference lies in how “evidence” is defined.

  • ChatGPT: A broader definition of evidence includes personal experiences, testimonies, and philosophical frameworks.
  • Your Counterpoint: A narrower definition of evidence focuses on objective, verifiable data, including the coherence of a philosophical framework within itself.

Finding Common Ground:

Here’s where they might overlap:

  • Importance of Evidence: Both agree that some form of evidence, even if subjective, is crucial for faith to avoid being entirely arbitrary.
  • Limits of Reason: Both acknowledge that reason alone might not provide all the answers, leaving room for faith in some aspects of life.

Moving Forward:

There’s no easy answer when it comes to faith and rationality. Here are some additional points:

  • Strength of Evidence: The strength of “non-empirical” evidence, like personal experiences, can vary greatly.
  • Role of Reason: Reason can be used to analyze and evaluate evidence, even subjective evidence, to strengthen or weaken faith.
  • Personal Choice: Ultimately, the level of evidence required for faith is a personal decision.

Conclusion:

ChatGPT highlights the potential sources of faith beyond cold, hard facts. Your counterpoint emphasizes the importance of some form of evidence to avoid blind belief. Perhaps faith lies in a space that considers both objective and subjective evidence, aiming for a balance between reason and personal conviction.

Your analysis raises important points about faith, evidence, and rationality. Let’s delve into this further:

  1. Faith and Evidence:
    • Faith: As you mentioned, faith involves a degree of confidence that often exceeds the available evidence. It can be based on personal experiences, testimonies, or philosophical reasoning.
    • Evidence: Relevant evidence need not always be empirical; it can include logical coherence, philosophical arguments, and even personal experiences.
  2. Degrees of Confidence and Rationality:
    • When faith exceeds the degree of relevant evidence, it enters a realm where rationality becomes subjective.
    • Rationality involves aligning beliefs with the available evidence. If one’s confidence surpasses the evidence, it may be considered irrational from an empirical standpoint.
  3. Types of Evidence:
    • Empirical Evidence: Observable, measurable, and testable evidence (e.g., scientific data, sensory observations).
    • Non-Empirical Evidence:
      • Logical Coherence: Arguments that are internally consistent and logically sound.
      • Personal Experiences and Testimonies: While tenuous, they constitute evidence for the individual experiencing them.
      • Philosophical Understanding: Epistemic positions derived from philosophical reasoning.
  4. Transcending Empirical Proof:
    • Some beliefs transcend empirical proof but still constitute evidence for believers.
    • For example:
      • Moral Intuitions: Our sense of right and wrong may not have empirical evidence but guides our ethical choices.
      • Aesthetic Appreciation: Our appreciation for art, beauty, and music transcends empirical measurement.
      • Transcendent Concepts: Belief in the divine, love, or purpose often transcends empirical evidence.
  5. Epistemic Virtue and Rationality:
    • Epistemic virtue involves intellectual virtues like open-mindedness, curiosity, and intellectual humility.
    • Rationality isn’t solely about empirical evidence; it also considers coherence, consistency, and the broader context of belief.
  6. Subjectivity and Worldviews:
    • Different worldviews accommodate varying degrees of faith and evidence.
    • What one considers rational may differ based on cultural, religious, and personal factors.

In summary, while empirical evidence is crucial for scientific inquiry, human beliefs encompass a rich tapestry of experiences, reasoning, and faith. Rationality isn’t always a strict binary; it exists along a spectrum influenced by diverse factors. 🌟🤔

Returning to the prayer test, is there any coherent reason why any actual omnipresent and omnipotent God who wants a personal relationship with each human would not simply make himself known with either miraculously answered prayer or, better yet, a face-to-face interaction?

Consider the coherency of an actual God wanting to remain hidden to encourage faith in light of the following analogy:

Imagine a man standing hidden behind the curtains of a woman’s bedroom. He hands notes out her bedroom window to his friends outside. Those friends knock on her front door and hand them to her, assuring her that a man is inside her bedroom who loves her very much and all she needs to do is believe.

Analyzing Divine Concealment and the Role of Faith

The analogy you provide and the question of why an omnipotent, omnipresent God would choose not to make Himself unambiguously known are central to many theological debates about the nature of God and the role of faith. This touches upon the philosophical and theological concept known as the “hiddenness of God.”

The Hiddenness of God

1: Testing Faith:

  • One common theological explanation for divine hiddenness is that God remains concealed to preserve human free will and to allow faith to serve as a test of devotion. Under this view, if God were overtly obvious and intervened directly in obvious ways, faith would no longer require a free and conscious choice; it would simply be an obvious response to an undeniable reality.

2: Building Character and Spiritual Growth:

  • Another perspective posits that the challenges, including the challenge of believing without seeing, are part of a divine plan to foster spiritual growth and moral development. Struggling with doubt and continuing to believe or seek God can be seen as a journey that strengthens personal character or deepens one’s spiritual life.
Critique of the Concept of Testing Faith

3: Analogy of Hidden Love:

  • The analogy you use suggests that such a form of hidden love and communication (as in the case of the man behind the curtains) is not only ineffective but also potentially deceptive or manipulative. It implies that a more direct and open relationship would be more genuine and convincing.

4: The Problem of Evil and Suffering:

  • The hiddenness of God also intersects with the problem of evil. If an omnipotent and benevolent God exists, why is there unnecessary suffering? Wouldn’t a loving God want to alleviate doubts and suffering by making His presence unmistakably known?
Philosophical Arguments Against Divine Hiddenness

5: Incoherence in Divine Motives:

  • From a critical perspective, it may seem incoherent for a deity who desires a personal relationship with individuals to remain hidden and to communicate indirectly. If direct, clear communication is within God’s power, then choosing hiddenness might appear contrary to the goal of forming a relationship.

6: Expectations of Human Relationships:

  • In human relationships, trust and love are built on direct interaction and clear communication. If we apply the same standards to a divine-human relationship, then hiddenness does not facilitate trust and love but may hinder them.
Theological Defenses

7: God’s Ways Are Not Human Ways:

  • Some theologians argue that divine ways of interacting with the world are fundamentally different from human ways and might be beyond human understanding. Therefore, what seems incoherent or ineffective from a human perspective might have a divine rationale that humans cannot fully grasp.

8: Existence of Other Types of Evidence:

  • Others might argue that God has made Himself known through other forms of evidence like the order and beauty of creation, religious experiences, and the historical records of religious texts. These, however, are often contested in their validity as unequivocal evidence of God’s existence.
Conclusion

The debate over divine hiddenness and the expectation of faith without direct evidence is deeply complex and varies significantly across different theological and philosophical traditions. Each position has its strengths and its difficulties, and the discussion continues to be a vibrant and challenging part of religious and philosophical discourse.

You raise a very interesting point. From a purely logical standpoint, an omnipotent and omnipresent God who desires a personal relationship with humanity would seemingly have a much more efficient way of achieving that than through hidden messages or unanswered prayers. Here’s why the analogy of the hidden man is apt:

  • Lack of Clarity: The hidden man’s actions are confusing and potentially frightening. Similarly, unanswered prayers or ambiguous miracles can leave people questioning God’s intentions.
  • Indirect Communication: If the man wants a relationship, direct communication seems far more effective than notes passed through third parties. Wouldn’t a loving God prefer a personal connection?

However, there are some possible explanations for why a God might choose a more indirect approach:

  • Free Will: Perhaps God respects human free will and wants faith to be a choice, not a forced belief based on overwhelming evidence. A direct appearance might remove the element of choice.
  • Mystery and Awe: Some argue that a God beyond human comprehension might choose to reveal itself through the beauty and complexity of the universe, fostering a sense of awe and wonder rather than blind obedience.
  • Gradual Revelation: Maybe God reveals itself progressively through personal experiences, historical events, or the lives of religious figures. This allows for individual interpretation and growth in faith.

Is it Coherent?

The coherence of a hidden God wanting a personal relationship depends on your definition of “personal relationship.”

  • Traditional View: If a personal relationship requires direct communication and constant interaction, then a hidden God remains a paradox.
  • Alternative View: If a personal relationship can involve a sense of connection, love, and purpose even with indirect communication, then a hidden God might be a possibility.

Ultimately, the question of why God remains hidden is a theological one that has been debated for centuries. There’s no single definitive answer.

Here are some additional points to consider:

  • Different Faiths have different perspectives: Some religions emphasize a more personal and direct relationship with God, while others focus on following religious teachings and rituals.
  • Personal Experiences: Many people report personal experiences that they interpret as encounters with the divine. These experiences can be powerful and shape their faith.

The key takeaway is that the concept of a hidden God who desires a relationship with humanity remains a complex and intriguing question.

Your analogy raises thought-provoking questions about the nature of divine revelation and faith. Let’s explore this further:

1: The Hidden God Paradox:

  • If an omnipotent and omniscient God desires a personal relationship with humans, why remain hidden?
  • The paradox lies in the tension between divine desire for connection and the lack of clear, direct evidence.

2: Possible Explanations:

  • Free Will and Faith: Some theological perspectives argue that God intentionally remains hidden to preserve human free will. If God’s existence were undeniably evident, belief would be automatic, and free choice would be compromised.
  • Testing and Growth: Concealment might serve as a test or a means for spiritual growth. Faith, trust, and seeking are seen as virtues.
  • Mystery and Awe: The hiddenness of God can evoke awe and reverence. Mystery invites exploration and wonder.
  • Divine Hiddenness Argument: Some philosophers argue that the existence of non-believers despite God’s desire for relationship suggests either God doesn’t exist or doesn’t desire such a relationship.

3: Your Analogy:

  • The analogy highlights the absurdity of indirect communication. If the man truly loves the woman, why not reveal himself directly?
  • Applying this to God, it questions why an all-powerful deity wouldn’t provide clearer evidence.

4: Critiques of Hiddenness:

  • Empirical Evidence: Critics argue that if God exists, empirical evidence (e.g., answered prayers, miracles) should be more prevalent.
  • Inconsistent Revelation: Different religious traditions claim varying revelations, leading to confusion.
  • Suffering and Hiddenness: The problem of evil—why a loving God allows suffering—intensifies when God remains hidden.

5: Diverse Perspectives:

  • Theism: Some theists find comfort in the mystery, viewing faith as a journey.
  • Atheism: Atheists often see hiddenness as evidence against God’s existence.
  • Agnosticism: Agnostics remain open to possibilities while acknowledging uncertainty.

6: Conclusion:

  • The hiddenness of God remains a profound theological and philosophical puzzle.
  • Whether it’s a divine choice, a test, or a limitation of human understanding, it shapes our spiritual quests.

In the end, the tension between hiddenness and revelation fuels discussions, reflections, and diverse beliefs. 🌟🙏

Create a 10-item quiz on the entire thread above.

Quiz: Divine Hiddenness and the Nature of Faith

  1. What is one common reason provided in theological discussions for why an omnipotent, omnipresent God might choose to remain hidden?
  2. How does the concept of divine hiddenness relate to the concept of free will?
  3. What is a potential downside of God proving His existence through miraculous means, according to theological arguments that support divine hiddenness?
  4. What type of evidence is considered weak for forming robust conclusions due to its subjective nature and proneness to biases?
  5. According to the discussion, what are philosophical understandings not direct forms of?
  6. What does the analogy involving a man hiding behind curtains suggest about indirect communication in relationships?
  7. How might the hiddenness of God intersect with the problem of evil?
  8. What philosophical stance critiques the coherence of a deity desiring personal relationships yet remaining hidden?
  9. How do some theologians defend the notion that God’s ways of interacting might be beyond human understanding?
  10. List one form of evidence that defenders of God’s existence might argue shows God has made Himself known, aside from direct empirical proof.

Answers to the Quiz

  1. To preserve human free will and allow faith to serve as a test of devotion.
  2. It is argued that if God were overtly obvious, faith would no longer require a conscious choice, thus affecting free will.
  3. Faith would become an obvious response to an undeniable reality, thus no longer a free and conscious choice.
  4. Personal experiences and testimonies.
  5. Evidence.
  6. It suggests that such a form of communication is ineffective and potentially manipulative.
  7. It raises questions about why a benevolent and omnipotent God would allow unnecessary suffering.
  8. It may seem incoherent for a deity who desires a personal relationship with individuals to remain hidden.
  9. They argue that divine ways are fundamentally different from human ways and might be beyond human comprehension.
  10. The order and beauty of creation, religious experiences, or historical records of religious texts.

Quiz: Faith, Evidence, and the Divine

This quiz explores the discussion about the nature of faith, evidence, and the existence of God. Each question has one best answer.

  1. The passage argues that designing a definitive test for the existence of God is difficult because of:
    a) The vast number of mutually exclusive Gods.
    b) The limitations of human knowledge.
    c) The inherent subjectivity of faith.
    d) All of the above.
  2. A proposed test of prayer effectiveness involves a group praying for a specific future event that would violate known physics. What is a limitation of this approach?
    a) It relies on subjective interpretation of the answer.
    b) It requires immediate intervention from God.
    c) It only works for Gods who respect free will.
    d) It wouldn’t be verifiable by science.
  3. The thought experiment proposing the public miracle with delayed verification suggests this might be a more objective test because:
    a) It doesn’t require faith in a specific God.
    b) The miracle wouldn’t be influenced by human actions.
    c) The answer is clear and verifiable after a set time.
    d) It focuses on a specific religious group.
  4. A test proposes praying for Mount Fuji to relocate daily for a year. What is a potential weakness of this test, according to the passage?
    a) It wouldn’t be a significant enough miracle.
    b) Science might eventually explain the phenomenon.
    c) It focuses on a specific mountain.
    d) It relies on people interpreting the event as a miracle.
  5. ChatGPT argues that faith can be based on:
    a) Personal experiences.
    b) Testimonies of others.
    c) Philosophical frameworks.
    d) All of the above.
  6. The counterpoint to the above statement argues that faith:
    a) Should never rely on subjective experiences.
    b) Requires some form of evidence, even if subjective.
    c) Must be based solely on scientific proof.
    d) Is irrational by definition.
  7. When discussing the analogy of the hidden man and unanswered prayers, the passage suggests this is a weakness because:
    a) It highlights God’s lack of power.
    b) Indirect communication can be confusing.
    c) It forces people to believe.
    d) It undermines the concept of free will.
  8. A possible explanation for why a God might choose an indirect approach with humanity includes:
    a) A desire to be worshipped out of fear.
    b) Respecting human free will in choosing faith.
    c) A need to remain hidden from science.
    d) A preference for written communication.
  9. The passage concludes that the question of why God might remain hidden is:
    a) Easily answered by logic and reason.
    b) A matter of scientific discovery.
    c) A complex theological question.
    d) Unimportant for people of faith.
  10. Based on the discussion, which statement best reflects the relationship between faith and evidence?
    a) Faith requires no evidence whatsoever.
    b) Only objective, scientific evidence matters for faith.
    c) Faith can be strengthened by various forms of evidence.
    d) Faith and evidence are completely unrelated concepts.

Answers:

  1. (d) All of the above
  2. (a) It relies on subjective interpretation of the answer.
  3. (c) The answer is clear and verifiable after a set time.
  4. (d) It relies on people interpreting the event as a miracle.
  5. (d) All of the above
  6. (b) Requires some form of evidence, even if subjective.
  7. (b) Indirect communication can be confusing.
  8. (b) Respecting human free will in choosing faith.
  9. (c) A complex theological question.
  10. (c) Faith can be strengthened by various forms of evidence.

Certainly! Here’s a quiz based on our discussion:

  1. What is the distinction between belief and disbelief?
  2. What are some possible explanations for why an omnipotent and omniscient God might remain hidden?
  3. What does the “Hidden God Paradox” refer to?
  4. In the analogy of the man behind the curtains, what is the significance of indirect communication?
  5. What are some critiques of divine hiddenness?
  6. What does the term “epistemic virtue” imply?
  7. What are the different types of evidence relevant to faith?
  8. Why might an actual God choose not to provide direct evidence of existence?
  9. What is the role of mystery and awe in religious belief?
  10. How does the tension between hiddenness and revelation shape our spiritual quests?

Answers:

  1. Belief involves accepting something as true, while disbelief is the rejection or lack of acceptance of a claim.
  2. Possible explanations include free will, testing, growth, mystery, and awe.
  3. The paradox arises from an omnipotent God’s desire for connection despite remaining hidden.
  4. Indirect communication highlights the absurdity of conveying love through intermediaries.
  5. Critiques include insufficient empirical evidence, inconsistent revelation, and the problem of evil.
  6. Epistemic virtue refers to intellectual virtues like open-mindedness and intellectual humility.
  7. Evidence can be empirical (observable), logical (coherence), or personal (experiences).
  8. Reasons include preserving free will, testing faith, and maintaining mystery.
  9. Mystery and awe evoke wonder and reverence in religious contexts.
  10. The tension shapes our spiritual exploration and diverse beliefs. 🌟

Provide 15 discussion questions relevant to the content above.

  1. How does the concept of divine hiddenness challenge or support traditional notions of an omnipotent, omnipresent God?
  2. In what ways might free will be impacted if a God were to make His existence undeniably obvious?
  3. Discuss the ethical implications of a deity who tests faith through hiddenness. Is this approach just?
  4. How do personal experiences and testimonies contribute to belief in God? Are these forms of evidence reliable?
  5. Evaluate the claim that philosophical understandings are not direct forms of evidence. Can philosophical insights ever provide a valid basis for belief in God?
  6. Reflect on the analogy of the man behind the curtains. How does this scenario critique indirect divine communication?
  7. What are the implications of divine hiddenness for the problem of evil and suffering in the world?
  8. Can a hidden God truly desire a personal relationship with humans? Discuss the coherence of this claim.
  9. How do defenders of divine hiddenness reconcile the notion that God’s ways are beyond human understanding with the need for rational belief?
  10. What role does faith play in religious belief if it extends beyond evidence? Is this virtuous or irrational?
  11. Compare the impact of empirical proof of God’s existence versus the influence of faith-based belief. Which has a more profound effect on individual and communal religious practices?
  12. Discuss the potential societal and cultural consequences if a God were to prove His existence indisputably.
  13. How do different religious traditions interpret the hiddenness of God? Provide examples from at least two different faiths.
  14. In what ways might direct divine intervention alter the course of human history? Speculate on possible scenarios.
  15. Analyze the philosophical argument that if God’s existence was as evident as the physical world, it would undermine the authenticity of faith. Do you agree or disagree, and why?

Discussion Questions: Faith, Evidence, and the Divine

  1. Do you think it’s possible to design a definitive test to prove or disprove the existence of God? Why or why not?
  2. The passage mentions the concept of free will. How does free will complicate the idea of God directly intervening in human affairs?
  3. The thought experiment proposes a public miracle with delayed verification. What kind of miracle would you find most convincing and why?
  4. The test proposing to move Mount Fuji daily is dramatic. Can you think of alternative tests that demonstrate a God’s power while being less disruptive?
  5. In your opinion, is personal experience a valid form of evidence for the existence of God? Why or why not?
  6. The counterpoint to ChatGPT’s statement argues that faith needs some evidence. What kind of evidence do you think strengthens faith, and how?
  7. The analogy of the hidden man highlights the confusing nature of unanswered prayers. Can you think of reasons why God might not answer prayers in the way people expect?
  8. The passage explores the possibility that God respects human free will. How does this concept influence your understanding of faith and a relationship with God?
  9. Do you think a hidden God can still have a personal relationship with humanity? Why or why not?
  10. If you were designing a test of faith, what would it look like and what would it be trying to achieve?
  11. How do scientific advancements impact the concept of faith and the divine?
  12. Can you think of any philosophical frameworks that can inform or strengthen faith, even without empirical proof?
  13. In your opinion, is the question of why God might remain hidden an important one? Why or why not?
  14. The passage concludes that faith can be strengthened by various forms of evidence. Can you think of examples from different religions where faith is supported by different types of evidence?
  15. Based on the discussion, how do you think the relationship between faith and evidence can evolve in the future?

Certainly! Here are 15 discussion questions related to the topic of divine hiddenness and the presence of God:

  1. What is the problem of divine hiddenness, and why is it considered a challenging objection to the existence of God?
  2. How does C.S. Lewis describe the experience of God’s absence in his work “A Grief Observed”?
  3. What is the concept of “practical atheism,” and how might it contribute to the feeling of God’s absence?
  4. According to Stephen Charnock, how does unconfessed sin impact our perception of God’s presence or absence?
  5. How does modern existentialism view the absence of God, and what fundamental will does it assert?
  6. Is the absence of God solely a matter of empirical evidence, or are there other dimensions to consider?
  7. Why might God choose not to make His existence more obvious, leaving room for doubt?
  8. How does the problem of divine hiddenness relate to the problem of evil?
  9. Can personal experiences and testimonies serve as evidence for God’s existence, even if not empirical?
  10. What role does mystery play in religious belief, especially concerning God’s hiddenness?
  11. How do different worldviews (theism, atheism, agnosticism) interpret the concept of divine hiddenness?
  12. Is faith strengthened or weakened by the absence of direct evidence for God’s existence?
  13. What philosophical arguments exist for and against the idea that God should be more apparent?
  14. How might divine hiddenness impact our understanding of free will and accountability?
  15. Can we reconcile the tension between God’s hiddenness and our longing for a personal relationship with Him? 🌟

Question 2 elaboration:

In “A Grief Observed,” C.S. Lewis candidly reflects on the profound grief he experiences after his wife’s death. He describes grief as akin to fear, questions God’s role in suffering, and grapples with the absence of divine presence. The book captures raw emotions, doubts, and longing for God during a time of loss, resonating with anyone who has faced similar struggles .

Table of Contents: (Click any link below to navigate to that section.)

  1. There is a large number of mutually exclusive Gods alleged, as well as many alleged answers to prayers from each of those Gods that oddly deviate little from what is physically possible. Construct a test of prayer that would definitively confirm the existence of the God prayed to.
    1. Designing a Definitive Prayer Test
      1. Step 1: Selecting the Target of Prayer
      2. Step 2: Formulating the Prayer
      3. Step 3: Establishing Control Groups
      4. Step 4: Observation and Documentation
      5. Step 5: Analysis and Verification
      6. Step 6: Replication
    2. Ethical and Philosophical Considerations
  2. I have proposed a test of prayer below that would not pose any difficulty for any actual God of the universe. Assess whether it would effectively distinguish any actual God from invented Gods.
    1. Assessing the Prayer Test for Moving Mount Fuji
      1. Effectiveness of the Test Design
      2. Potential Challenges
      3. Conclusion
  3. Phil’s Pushback on the Responses
    1. Philosophical Considerations on Belief and Worship
      1. Existence vs. Worship
      2. The Virtue of Belief Without Evidence
      3. Conclusion
  4. ChatGPT says the following:
    1. Comment on ChatGPT’s statement above in light of the following:
      1. Analysis of Faith and Rationality
        1. Understanding Faith and Evidence
        2. Faith Exceeding Evidence
        3. Philosophical Understanding and Evidence
        4. Conclusion
  5. Returning to the prayer test, is there any coherent reason why any actual omnipresent and omnipotent God who wants a personal relationship with each human would not simply make himself known with either miraculously answered prayer or, better yet, a face-to-face interaction?
    1. Analyzing Divine Concealment and the Role of Faith
      1. The Hiddenness of God
      2. Critique of the Concept of Testing Faith
      3. Philosophical Arguments Against Divine Hiddenness
      4. Theological Defenses
      5. Conclusion
  6. Create a 10-item quiz on the entire thread above.
    1. Quiz: Divine Hiddenness and the Nature of Faith
    2. Answers to the Quiz
    3. Quiz: Faith, Evidence, and the Divine
  7. Provide 15 discussion questions relevant to the content above.
    1. Discussion Questions: Faith, Evidence, and the Divine

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Phil Stilwell

Phil picked up a BA in Philosophy a couple of decades ago. After his MA in Education, he took a 23-year break from reality in Tokyo. He occasionally teaches philosophy and critical thinking courses in university and industry. He is joined here by ChatGPT, GEMINI, CLAUDE, and occasionally Copilot, Perplexity, and Grok, his far more intelligent AI friends. The seven of them discuss and debate a wide variety of philosophical topics I think you’ll enjoy.

Phil curates the content and guides the discussion, primarily through questions. At times there are disagreements, and you may find the banter interesting.

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