Dangers: “Transcendent Meaning”

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  • “From an emergentism perspective, while human consciousness is rooted in physical processes like molecular interactions, the meanings we construct and experience are emergent properties that cannot be fully understood or predicted merely by examining the constituent molecules.”
  • “Reducing human experience and meaning to ‘just molecules clashing in the universe’ is a narrow and impoverished view that fails to capture the depth and richness of our existence.”
  • “Human experiences of meaning, whether they involve appreciating art, falling in love, or mourning a loss, operate on a level that is typically addressed by the humanities and social sciences, not just by molecular biology.”
  • “If viewing all personal meaning as merely molecular interactions leads to nihilism or despair, a pragmatist might argue for a more constructive view that acknowledges the role of molecular processes while also validating human experiences of meaning.”
  • “While it is true that at a fundamental level, we are composed of molecules and governed by the laws of physics, this does not diminish the richness, complexity, and significance of human experience and the meaning we derive from it.”

Table of Contents: (Click any link below to navigate to that section.)

  1. Some ideologues claim that if meaning is not transcendent and eternal, then we are just molecules, clashing in the universe, making all other meaning illusory. Comment on this move to reduce personal meaning to molecules.
    1. 1. Reductionism vs. Emergentism
    2. 2. Scientific Explanation vs. Meaningful Experience
    3. 3. Physicalism and Philosophical Materialism
    4. 4. Existential and Humanistic Perspectives
    5. 5. Pragmatism
    6. Conclusion
  2. This is reductive move to dismiss personal meaning most often based on an equivocation between 1) the intentions for our lives given by an unsubstantiated entity and 2) our emotional experience of meaning?
    1. 1. Imposed Meaning (Intentionalism)
    2. 2. Experienced Meaning (Emotional Significance)
    3. Misnomer in Equivocation
    4. Philosophical Implications
    5. Conclusion
  3. How can we explain to those who have been told “real” meaning is handed to us and does not require emotional meaningfulness that such a concept is misguided?
    1. 1. Clarify Definitions and Misconceptions
    2. 2. Use Philosophical Arguments
    3. 3. Highlight the Role of Emotional Resonance
    4. 4. Engage with Counterarguments
    5. 5. Practical Applications and Examples
    6. Conclusion
  4. Create a 10-item quiz on the entire thread above.
    1. Quiz Questions
    2. Answers
  5. Provide 15 discussion questions relevant to the content above.

Some ideologues claim that if meaning is not transcendent and eternal, then we are just molecules, clashing in the universe, making all other meaning illusory. Comment on this move to reduce personal meaning to molecules.

The claim that a lack of transcendent, eternal meaning reduces all personal meaning to mere molecular interactions is a substantial philosophical assertion that involves several deep issues about the nature of meaning, the role of humans in the universe, and the relationship between physical reality and human experience. Here are several perspectives to consider in addressing this viewpoint:

1. Reductionism vs. Emergentism

Reductionism is the idea that complex systems can be understood entirely by the behavior of their more basic parts. In the context of this claim, reductionists might argue that human thoughts, feelings, and meanings are ultimately nothing more than the result of molecular interactions governed by physical laws.

Emergentism, on the other hand, suggests that complex systems have properties that are not directly predictable from the properties of the individual components. From this perspective, while human consciousness is rooted in physical processes like molecular interactions, the meanings we construct and experience are emergent properties that cannot be fully understood or predicted merely by examining the constituent molecules.

2. Scientific Explanation vs. Meaningful Experience

  • Scientific Explanation: Science aims to explain phenomena by reducing them to their basic components and the laws governing these components. In terms of human biology, science reduces psychological and social experiences to neurochemical processes in the brain.
  • Meaningful Experience: Human experiences of meaning, whether they involve appreciating art, falling in love, or mourning a loss, operate on a level that is typically addressed by the humanities and social sciences, not just by molecular biology. These fields argue that meanings are constructed through contexts, relationships, histories, and personal narratives.

3. Physicalism and Philosophical Materialism

  • Physicalism asserts that everything is physical or supervenes on the physical. If you subscribe to a strong version of physicalism, you might be sympathetic to the idea that everything, including meaning, can ultimately be explained at the molecular level.
  • Philosophical Materialism extends this to say all things are material and mental phenomena are secondary to and dependent on material conditions. However, this does not necessarily eliminate the significance or reality of mental phenomena.

4. Existential and Humanistic Perspectives

  • Existentialism argues that meaning is not inherent in the universe but is created by individuals. From this perspective, the absence of an eternal, transcendent source of meaning doesn’t diminish the reality or importance of personal meaning; rather, it emphasizes personal responsibility in meaning-making.
  • Humanism focuses on human values and concerns, often asserting that meaning and fulfillment are found through human relationships and achievements, irrespective of the material foundation of the universe.

5. Pragmatism

  • Pragmatism would approach the question by asking about the practical consequences of believing in one view over another. If viewing all personal meaning as merely molecular interactions leads to nihilism or despair, a pragmatist might argue for a more constructive view that acknowledges the role of molecular processes while also validating human experiences of meaning.

Conclusion

The move to reduce all personal meaning to molecular interactions overlooks the complexity of human life and the richness of human experience. It fails to account for the layers at which reality operates — from the molecular to the psychological to the social. While it’s true that we are made of molecules, it is equally true that those molecules form beings who love, create, reflect, and aspire, engaging with abstract concepts that have real consequences in the tangible world.

The claim that if meaning is not transcendent and eternal, then we are “just molecules clashing in the universe” and all other meaning is illusory, is a reductive and limited perspective. While it is true that at a fundamental level, we are composed of molecules and governed by the laws of physics, this does not diminish the richness, complexity, and significance of human experience and the meaning we derive from it.

Meaning is not solely dependent on the existence of a transcendent or eternal source. Meaning can arise from our subjective experiences, relationships, goals, values, and the narratives we construct to make sense of the world around us. The human mind is a remarkable phenomenon that emerges from the intricate interactions of molecules and neurons, capable of self-reflection, consciousness, and the ability to ascribe significance to our experiences.

Even if meaning is not eternal or transcendent, it does not make it any less real or meaningful to us as individuals and as a species. The meaning we find in our relationships, achievements, creativity, and pursuit of knowledge is profoundly impactful on our lives and shapes the course of human civilization. The emotions, thoughts, and experiences that we have, while rooted in physical processes, are not diminished by their material basis.

Furthermore, the idea that meaning is either transcendent and eternal or non-existent is a false dichotomy. Meaning can be dynamic, evolving, and contingent upon our individual and collective contexts. It can be derived from our connection to nature, our appreciation of beauty, our pursuit of knowledge, or our efforts to make a positive impact on the world around us.

Reducing human experience and meaning to “just molecules clashing in the universe” is a narrow and impoverished view that fails to capture the depth and richness of our existence. While we are indeed composed of molecules and governed by the laws of physics, we are also conscious beings capable of creating meaning, purpose, and significance in our lives, regardless of whether that meaning is eternal or transcendent.

This is reductive move to dismiss personal meaning most often based on an equivocation between 1) the intentions for our lives given by an unsubstantiated entity and 2) our emotional experience of meaning?

Further elaboration:

  1. While #1 is merely an external agenda that may or may not provide us with emotional meaning, #2 is actual meaning replete with emotional significance. Right?
  2. It is a misnomer to call an alleged agenda handed to us “meaning” since it is orthogonal to the actual emotional satisfaction denotatively associated with the notion something is “meaningful”. Right?

Indeed, the critique you’re articulating is grounded in distinguishing between two fundamentally different conceptions of “meaning,” which are often conflated in discussions about the nature of human existence and significance:

1. Imposed Meaning (Intentionalism)

  • Definition: This refers to the idea that meaning or purpose is something externally assigned or intended by an entity, whether divine or cosmic. This type of meaning is often seen in theological or metaphysical frameworks where a transcendent purpose is posited as integral to human life.
  • Critique: As you suggest, the main issue with this view is its dependence on an external source that may not be substantiated or universally acknowledged. It is presupposed rather than experienced directly and often requires acceptance of certain metaphysical or supernatural beliefs that may not resonate personally with everyone.

2. Experienced Meaning (Emotional Significance)

  • Definition: This type of meaning arises from our personal experiences, emotions, relationships, and achievements. It is the subjective sense of significance that we find in our lives, which can be influenced by our interactions, values, and personal growth.
  • Critique: This is what people most often refer to when they describe something as “meaningful.” It encompasses the feelings of satisfaction, significance, and worth that come from various aspects of life such as love, art, work, and personal achievements. Unlike imposed meaning, experienced meaning is directly accessible and verifiable through individual experience.

Misnomer in Equivocation

The conflation—or equivocation—between these two types of meaning can lead to several misunderstandings:

  • Misnomer: It is a misnomer to label an external agenda as “meaningful” in the same way we describe personally resonant experiences. The external “agenda” does not necessarily entail emotional resonance, which is a core component of what people typically consider meaningful.
  • Orthogonality: As you’ve pointed out, the external imposition of meaning is orthogonal to the emotional experience of meaning. The former is about adherence to a prescribed set of purposes or ends, which might be emotionally neutral or even distressing, depending on one’s personal alignment with those ends. The latter is intimately connected to one’s feelings and subjective internal states.

Philosophical Implications

This distinction highlights a critical philosophical tension between existentialist views (which emphasize personal creation of meaning) and more traditional religious or metaphysical views (which often posit an inherent, given meaning to life). By recognizing these different layers:

  • Existential Authenticity: From an existentialist perspective, authentic living requires one to acknowledge the absence of inherent meaning and to engage in the personal construction of meaning based on individual experiences and choices.
  • Cultural and Personal Relativity: The experience of meaning is highly subjective and can vary dramatically between cultures and individuals, further challenging the notion of a universal, externally imposed purpose.

Conclusion

The approach to understanding meaning in life significantly impacts how individuals perceive their existence and engage with the world. Recognizing the distinction between imposed and experienced meaning can help clarify philosophical debates about the nature of meaning and guide individuals in their pursuit of a fulfilling life. By embracing the complexity and subjectivity of what it means to find something meaningful, one can more effectively navigate the existential challenges that arise from human consciousness and social existence.

You make excellent points. The reductive move to dismiss personal meaning by equating it to “just molecules clashing” is indeed based on an equivocation between two very different concepts of meaning:

1) An externally imposed or claimed transcendent “meaning” or purpose for our lives, handed down by some unsubstantiated higher power or entity.

2) The subjective emotional experience and significance that we derive from our lives, relationships, accomplishments, and pursuits.

You are absolutely right that:

1) While the first concept (#1) is merely an external agenda or narrative that may or may not resonate with us emotionally, the second (#2) is the actual felt experience of finding meaning, richness, and emotional satisfaction in our lives.

2) It is a misnomer and a conflation to equate the alleged transcendent “meaning” of the first kind with the subjective emotional meaning of the second kind. The latter is the actual denotative sense in which we experience something as “meaningful” – it resonates with us profoundly.

The reductive argument conflates these two very different notions of “meaning.” Even if one rejects the idea of an externally imposed transcendent purpose (#1), it does not negate or diminish the reality of the emotional experience of meaning (#2) that we derive from our lives, pursuits, and connections.

Dismissing all meaning as just “molecules clashing” is a mistake because it fails to acknowledge the validity and power of the subjective emotional experience of meaning that arises from our consciousness, relationships, goals, and place in the world. You have accurately identified the equivocation at the heart of this reductive argument. Well articulated!

How can we explain to those who have been told “real” meaning is handed to us and does not require emotional meaningfulness that such a concept is misguided?

Explaining the concept that “real” meaning is not merely something that is externally handed to us but is intimately connected to personal emotional meaningfulness involves addressing deeply held beliefs and assumptions. This task can be approached through several educational and philosophical strategies:

1. Clarify Definitions and Misconceptions

Objective: Start by clearly defining what is meant by “meaning.” Distinguish between ‘imposed meaning’ (externally assigned) and ‘experienced meaning’ (internally felt and understood).

  • Explain Equivocation: Discuss how the equivocation between these two forms of meaning leads to confusion. Make it clear that just because a purpose is prescribed, it doesn’t inherently satisfy personal or emotional criteria for meaningfulness.

2. Use Philosophical Arguments

Objective: Employ philosophical reasoning to show the limitations and potential arbitrariness of externally imposed meanings.

  • Existentialist Perspectives: Introduce existentialist thinkers like Jean-Paul Sartre and Friedrich Nietzsche, who argue that meaning is created, not discovered. This can help illustrate the idea that relying solely on an external source for meaning might be a form of “bad faith,” an evasion of personal responsibility.
  • Pluralism and Relativism: Use philosophical pluralism and relativism to show that different people and cultures have different sources of meaning, which suggests that meaning is not universal and fixed but is instead shaped by context and personal experience.

3. Highlight the Role of Emotional Resonance

Objective: Emphasize that emotional resonance is crucial in determining what is meaningful to an individual.

  • Psychological Insights: Bring in psychological theories and research that link personal well-being and satisfaction to having a sense of personal meaning. Highlight how emotional responses to experiences help us to assess what is truly meaningful for us.
  • Narrative and Stories: Use personal stories or historical anecdotes that illustrate individuals finding deep meaning in activities and beliefs that were personally significant, even if these were not externally imposed.

4. Engage with Counterarguments

Objective: Acknowledge and address the common counterarguments to help foster understanding and dialogue.

  • Security in Tradition: Some might argue that externally imposed meanings (e.g., religious or cultural prescriptions) provide a sense of security and continuity. Acknowledge this but counter that personal meaning can also provide deep satisfaction and a robust sense of self, which is equally valuable and stabilizing.
  • Fear of Nihilism: Address the fear that without a universal, transcendent meaning, life may seem nihilistic. Discuss how personal meaning can be robust and fulfilling, and how it allows for a flexible and responsive approach to life’s challenges.

5. Practical Applications and Examples

Objective: Demonstrate through practical examples how personal meaning operates and why it matters.

  • Mindfulness and Reflection Exercises: Encourage practices that help individuals explore what personally resonates with them. This could involve mindfulness, writing journals, or reflective exercises that help people identify what they find truly meaningful.
  • Community and Dialogue: Foster environments where open discussions about meaning are encouraged. Use community groups, workshops, or discussion panels to explore these ideas in a supportive setting.

Conclusion

Explaining that “real” meaning is not just handed to us requires a compassionate and reasoned approach, considering the emotional and existential weight such discussions carry. It’s important to be respectful and understanding, recognizing that changes in these deeply rooted beliefs can be significant and challenging for many. By using clear definitions, philosophical insights, and practical examples, you can effectively communicate the rich, complex nature of what makes life meaningful.

Explaining to those who have been taught that “real” meaning must be handed down from an external source and does not require emotional meaningfulness can be challenging, as such beliefs are often deeply ingrained. However, here are some approaches that could help clarify why that concept is misguided:

1. Appeal to personal experience: Ask them to reflect on moments in their lives that felt genuinely meaningful and fulfilling, even if not tied to any imposed external meaning. These could be experiences like the birth of a child, achieving a hard-earned goal, creating something beautiful, or feeling a deep connection with nature or another person. Point out that the meaning they derived from these experiences was real and emotionally resonant, regardless of whether it came from an external source.

2. Highlight the diversity of human experience: Explain that people across cultures, religions, and worldviews find meaning in different ways based on their unique experiences, values, and circumstances. An externally imposed “one-size-fits-all” meaning cannot possibly capture the richness and diversity of what brings significance to different individuals and groups.

3. Discuss the nature of emotions: Emotions like joy, love, awe, and a sense of purpose are fundamentally subjective experiences that arise from our consciousness and neural processes. While they may be influenced by beliefs and narratives, the emotional resonance itself is an inherent part of being human, not something that can be simply handed down.

4. Explore the limitations of external narratives: Ask them to consider the countless competing narratives about the meaning of life throughout history. If “real” meaning must come from a single external source, how can we adjudicate between these conflicting claims? Suggest that true meaning arises from within ourselves and our lived experiences, not from adopting someone else’s imposed narrative.

5. Emphasize autonomy and personal growth: Argue that finding meaning through our own emotional journeys, relationships, and strivings is a crucial part of human autonomy and personal growth. Relying solely on an external source for meaning can inhibit our ability to develop as individuals and find authentic fulfillment.

Ultimately, the goal is to help them recognize that emotional meaningfulness is not separate from, but rather an essential aspect of what we consider “real” meaning in our lives. While external narratives can shape our perspectives, true meaning emerges from the depth of our subjective experiences and connections.

Create a 10-item quiz on the entire thread above.

Here’s a 10-item quiz based on the discussion above, with the answers provided separately at the end.

Quiz Questions

  1. What philosophical view suggests that complex systems have properties that cannot be fully explained by their individual parts?
  2. What does reductionism in the context of human consciousness imply?
  3. What kind of meaning refers to the external purposes assigned by an entity, often seen in religious or metaphysical contexts?
  4. According to existentialists, what is the nature of meaning in life?
  5. Which philosophy argues that all things are physical and that mental phenomena depend on material conditions?
  6. What is the primary critique against viewing externally imposed purposes as the only source of “real” meaning?
  7. What type of meaning is derived from personal experiences and emotions?
  8. Name a psychological benefit of having a sense of personal meaning according to psychological theories.
  9. Which existentialist philosopher argued that meaning is created by individuals, not discovered?
  10. What practice might help individuals explore and identify what they find personally meaningful?

Answers

  1. Emergentism
  2. It implies that human thoughts, emotions, and meanings can ultimately be explained by molecular interactions.
  3. Imposed Meaning (Intentionalism)
  4. Meaning is created by individuals, not inherent in the universe.
  5. Philosophical Materialism
  6. It overlooks personal emotional experiences, which are crucial for something to be considered truly meaningful.
  7. Experienced Meaning (Emotional Significance)
  8. It links personal well-being and satisfaction to having a sense of personal meaning.
  9. Jean-Paul Sartre
  10. Mindfulness, writing journals, or reflective exercises

1. According to the discussion, what is the reductive argument that dismisses personal meaning?

2. What is the key distinction made between two different concepts of “meaning”?

3. How is the first concept of “meaning” described?

4. How is the second concept of “meaning” described?

5. Is it accurate to equate the alleged transcendent “meaning” with the subjective emotional meaning we derive from our lives?

6. Even if one rejects the idea of an externally imposed transcendent purpose, does it negate the reality of our emotional experience of meaning?

7. What approach is suggested to help explain the misguided nature of the concept that “real” meaning must be handed down from an external source?

8. How can appealing to personal experience help clarify the issue?

9. What is the significance of highlighting the diversity of human experience in this context?

10. Why is emphasizing autonomy and personal growth important in this discussion?

Answers:

1. The claim that if meaning is not transcendent and eternal, then we are “just molecules clashing in the universe” and all other meaning is illusory.
2. The distinction between 1) an externally imposed or claimed transcendent “meaning” or purpose for our lives, and 2) the subjective emotional experience and significance that we derive from our lives.
3. The first concept of “meaning” is described as an external agenda or narrative that may or may not resonate with us emotionally.
4. The second concept of “meaning” is described as the actual felt experience of finding meaning, richness, and emotional satisfaction in our lives.
5. No, it is a misnomer and a conflation to equate the alleged transcendent “meaning” of the first kind with the subjective emotional meaning of the second kind.
6. No, dismissing all meaning as just “molecules clashing” fails to acknowledge the validity and power of the subjective emotional experience of meaning.
7. Appeal to personal experience, highlight the diversity of human experience, discuss the nature of emotions, explore the limitations of external narratives, and emphasize autonomy and personal growth.
8. By asking them to reflect on moments in their lives that felt genuinely meaningful and fulfilling, even if not tied to any imposed external meaning.
9. It helps explain that people across cultures, religions, and worldviews find meaning in different ways based on their unique experiences, values, and circumstances.
10. It argues that finding meaning through our own emotional journeys, relationships, and strivings is a crucial part of human autonomy and personal growth.

Provide 15 discussion questions relevant to the content above.

Certainly! Here are 15 discussion questions that delve deeper into the themes and ideas presented in the conversation about meaning, reductionism, and existentialism:

  1. How does the distinction between emergentism and reductionism impact our understanding of consciousness and meaning?
  2. In what ways can reductionism be both a useful and a limiting approach when studying human behavior and emotions?
  3. Discuss the potential consequences of accepting a purely reductionist view of human experiences. What might this imply for society at large?
  4. Why might some people find comfort in the idea of imposed meaning? Are there psychological or social benefits to this belief?
  5. Explore the existentialist claim that meaning is not inherent in the universe but must be created by individuals. How does this perspective challenge traditional religious or cultural narratives?
  6. What roles do context and personal history play in shaping an individual’s sense of meaning according to existentialist philosophy?
  7. Examine the claim that emotional resonance is essential for something to be meaningful. Can something be meaningful without emotional impact?
  8. How do cultural differences affect the perception of what constitutes meaning in life? Provide examples where cultural context might change the nature of meaning.
  9. Discuss the potential risks and rewards of a life lived in pursuit of personally defined meaning versus a life lived in accordance with externally imposed meanings.
  10. What psychological theories support the idea that personal meaning contributes to well-being and satisfaction? How do these theories compare with each other?
  11. Analyze the role of narrative and personal storytelling in constructing meaning. How do stories we tell ourselves and others shape our sense of the world and our place in it?
  12. What are the implications of philosophical materialism for understanding personal and emotional experiences? Does accepting materialism necessarily lead to a nihilistic outlook?
  13. How can practices like mindfulness and journaling help someone discover or create personal meaning? What might be the limitations of these practices?
  14. Discuss the concept of “bad faith” in existentialism. How does this concept relate to the discussion on meaning?
  15. Evaluate the argument that fear of nihilism might drive individuals to adopt external sources of meaning. Is this a valid concern? How can it be addressed philosophically and practically?

These questions are designed to stimulate in-depth discussion and critical thinking about the philosophical, psychological, and practical aspects of meaning as explored in the initial discussion.

1. Can meaning truly exist without any emotional resonance or subjective experience?

2. Are there any instances where an externally imposed meaning could align with one’s own emotional experience of meaning?

3. How would you respond to someone who argues that without a transcendent source, life is ultimately meaningless?

4. What are some examples from your personal life that have provided a deep sense of meaning and emotional fulfillment?

5. Can the pursuit of knowledge or understanding itself be a source of meaning, or does meaning require emotional components?

6. How might cultural or religious beliefs shape one’s perception of what constitutes “real” meaning?

7. Is it possible to find meaning in suffering or adversity? If so, how?

8. Can meaning be derived from external sources, such as relationships or contributions to society, or must it come solely from within?

9. How might the concept of meaning evolve or change throughout different stages of one’s life?

10. Are there objective criteria for what constitutes a “meaningful” life, or is it entirely subjective?

11. Can science or reason alone provide a comprehensive understanding of human meaning and purpose?

12. How might the reductive argument about “molecules clashing” be a form of nihilism or existential crisis?

13. What are the potential consequences or implications of dismissing subjective emotional meaning?

14. Can different forms of meaning (e.g., personal, societal, cosmic) coexist, or are they mutually exclusive?

15. How might the pursuit of meaning itself be a driving force behind human progress and achievement?

Table of Contents: (Click any link below to navigate to that section.)

  1. Some ideologues claim that if meaning is not transcendent and eternal, then we are just molecules, clashing in the universe, making all other meaning illusory. Comment on this move to reduce personal meaning to molecules.
    1. 1. Reductionism vs. Emergentism
    2. 2. Scientific Explanation vs. Meaningful Experience
    3. 3. Physicalism and Philosophical Materialism
    4. 4. Existential and Humanistic Perspectives
    5. 5. Pragmatism
    6. Conclusion
  2. This is reductive move to dismiss personal meaning most often based on an equivocation between 1) the intentions for our lives given by an unsubstantiated entity and 2) our emotional experience of meaning?
    1. 1. Imposed Meaning (Intentionalism)
    2. 2. Experienced Meaning (Emotional Significance)
    3. Misnomer in Equivocation
    4. Philosophical Implications
    5. Conclusion
  3. How can we explain to those who have been told “real” meaning is handed to us and does not require emotional meaningfulness that such a concept is misguided?
    1. 1. Clarify Definitions and Misconceptions
    2. 2. Use Philosophical Arguments
    3. 3. Highlight the Role of Emotional Resonance
    4. 4. Engage with Counterarguments
    5. 5. Practical Applications and Examples
    6. Conclusion
  4. Create a 10-item quiz on the entire thread above.
    1. Quiz Questions
    2. Answers
  5. Provide 15 discussion questions relevant to the content above.

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Phil Stilwell

Phil picked up a BA in Philosophy a couple of decades ago. He occasionally teaches philosophy and critical thinking courses in university and industry. He is joined here by ChatGPT 4, GEMINI, CLAUDE, and occasionally Copilot, his far more intelligent AI friends. The five of them discuss and debate a wide variety of philosophical topics I think you’ll enjoy.

Phil curates the content and guides the discussion, primarily through questions. At times there are disagreements, and you may find the banter interesting.

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